Fathers and Sons: How experiences impact generations and shape what we become.

In this episode of The Mindful Writer, Laurence Anholt, best-selling author, and multi-award winner author, explores the relationship between fathers and sons, and shares some useful writing tips. 

Before I introduce Laurence, let me update you on my writing journey.

This podcast is going live the day before the official launch date of The Forever Cruise. The paperback was published a few weeks ago and has had excellent reviews. So, I am looking forward to the launch party on 1stDecember, at my local independent bookshop, Caxtons. 

This may sound weird but for the past few decades I have experienced prophetic dreams about career and aspirations. They always take the form of a car. For example: 

Missing the turnoff on a roundabout: Did not get the job and career went in a different direction.

Car reversed: Received a revise and resubmit response from an agent.

Car joining motorway without stopping at junction: Agent submitted MS to publishers without first asking me to sign a contract or to meet.

I could go on. I have a dream, sometimes recurring and then the event follows. 

A few weeks ago, I had a car dream that made little sense until now. It was a recurring dream where the car turned a corner. I thought maybe I was to change direction, write something different, or I was about to be offered a publishing contract. But none of these explanations rang true.

Whether or not you believe these dreams were prophetic, I think you will agree that we all have intuition. Our heart knows but sometimes it takes a while for us to register this mentally. Maybe my car dreams are about my intuition being heard when I am sleeping.

In the past couple of weeks, the dream has made sense to me. So many amazing things have happened, and it seems are continuing to happen, as I approach the launch of my third novel. Incredible support from my local community and social media friends, in ways that I could not have imagined. Every day I get another surprise. I will tell you about these wonderful gifts in a future blog. 

This leads me in to introducing this week’s guest. Laurence talks about the dappled light – how we need both the highs and lows in life. The balance. So, if you feel as though you are on a long road with no light at the end look forward to turning a corner. Who knows what magnificent views await you? And now my friends on to the interview.

Laurence Anholt has been at the forefront of UK publishing for thirty years and consistently amongst 150 most borrowed authors from UK libraries across all genres.

His award-winning books span every age from baby board books, through to his adult crime series, The Mindful Detective.

In this episode Laurence talks about fathers and sons:

  • How his father’s experience as a young man liberating Belson had a ripple effect on the generations that followed.
  • How criticism is like weed-killer on the shoots of new life
  • Why we should embrace the light and shade in our lives
Laurence Anholt

Deborah: I’m delighted to welcome Lawrence Anholt to the Mindful Writer podcast today. Lawrence has been an author for over 35 years. His books, he says, reflect the ages of his children, as he first wrote stories for young children, then older children, young adults, and today he writes for adults. 

Laurence is multi-talented as an artist, Illustrator, and an author. He once owned a bookshop which went by the wonderful name of Chimpanzee Beside the Sea, which I love. It makes you smile, just saying it.

Laurence lives with his wife, Cathy, who is also an artist. And they’re passionate about renovating properties, creating beautiful homes. Their current home includes a rewilding project. So fascinated, reading all about your background, and really delighted to meet you, Lawrence. 

Laurence: So nice to meet you, Deborah, thanks for inviting me.

Deborah: Well, Lawrence, I haven’t got enough air time to do justice to all you’ve achieved in your life to date, and I’m sure, there will be more to come. But hopefully, we’ll learn more about you as we talk. You had huge international success as an award-winning author of children’s and young adult’s books, before writing your Mindful Detective series, which is what drew me to you – with the word mindful, which I found fascinating. But, before we go there, and we will go there, because I want to talk about that.

I listened to a radio four programme recently called Forethought, in which you were sharing some of your family history, which inspired The Hypnotist. I want to start there, because it’s really interesting how your family history, and your relationship with your father, inspired you to become an author and perhaps influenced what you wrote. Can we talk about that? 

Laurence: Yes

I had a complicated and quite difficult relationship with my father. When he died about 10 or 12 years ago, I honestly thought to myself: Well, I never really knew him.

He was a very secretive man. And actually, Deborah, right now I’m working on a sort of memoir – a sort of autobiography. So, every day now, I’m sitting down and writing about my father and my relationship with him. So, it’s something that’s very much in my mind.

As a child, and as a teenager, I really didn’t get him at all. I felt rejected by him, he wasn’t a good communicator. And it was only really later in life that I began to find out where he was coming from. Why he was the way he was; about his background experiences during the war, and the whole history of his family, which impacted so much on him. And it’s almost a cliche, but these things are like dropping a pebble in a pond; they have ripples that run through the generations.

There’s just simply not time to go into it in detail now. But my father came from a Dutch Jewish family with Persian roots. And during the war, he was a member of British intelligence. And he had some pretty horrific experiences in occupied France and occupied Holland. And eventually, he was in the group as a very young man of British allies who liberated Belson.

So, he saw some really appalling stuff at a very young age. And when he met my mom, he just simply hadn’t processed it. And there was no way of processing it, I think back then. So, when we all came along – when we were born, actually, you know, I’m quite old – not that long after the war. My father was not ready to have children, in many ways. Emotionally, he was still a child himself. And that had huge ramifications for me and my siblings. And it’s something I’ve been working with, for the whole of my life, really.

 I think a lot of my friends actually – it’s extraordinary, and I’m talking about men here, but the same thing, I’m sure is true of women – you know, did struggle with their relationship with their father

Particularly my generation, because the father’s had been through the war and so on.

So, yes. I mean, that’s very much part of who I am and who I always have been. And I think because he wasn’t nurturing as a father, I think I struggled a lot with self-esteem as a young man and at school. I failed miserably at school, actually. And so, I guess my life journey has been that journey of trying to find who I am, trying to find some degree of self-esteem –enough at least to write, and to paint, and to do the things that I want to do. 

And also, in particular for me, not to repeat the same mistakes with my own children, and now my grandchildren. So, I remember – I had kids quite young – and I remember almost consciously thinking to myself that I was going to do the opposite, really, of what my father did or didn’t do. And I would just finally say that, you know, none of this is to cast blame. When I was a young man, if you’d have asked me, I would have said, I hated my father. You know, that’s the way that we were. But I mean, that’s a pretty pointless and kneejerk way of reacting. And I think now, you know, I respect him. There are many, many things that I admire about the man he was: a very liberal man and without prejudice, really. And a self-educated man. And he’d been on an extraordinary journey himself. So, you know, I do have respect for who he was, but he wouldn’t have won any parenting awards, let’s put it that way.

Deborah: It’s interesting, isn’t it, as you get older, that you can look back with compassion at your parents, as you go through different, similar stages – life stages, you can look back, and perhaps look back on yourself as well, with some compassion?

Laurence: That’s right.

Image by StockSnap from Pixabay

Deborah: Interesting, you were talking about your generation and fathers who went through the war. That’s really interesting, and that I’ve picked up that a lot with men. And, you know, years ago, because I was an occupational therapist early in my career and worked in mental health, and I found a book – I just wished I had bought it. I think, I must have just it on a library shelf. It was about the main reasons why – men and fathers, and they were categorised with the case studies about the reasons why there were conflicts or problems between men and their fathers. And somebody had written this from a mental health perspective. And it was so powerful, about that important relationship between father and son.

Laurence: Yes, and it’s been a huge privilege for me. I have three grown up children and four grandchildren. And I have two daughters, and a son. And just concentrating for a moment on the relationship between men and boys. I mean, for me, it’s been one of the most – it almost makes me well up to talk about it – it’s been one of the most profound and rewarding things in my life, to develop a relationship with my son. A really close relationship. He lives in Berlin. Now he’s an artist, a painter, very, very successful. And we have such a close relationship. And it’s, it’s sort of everything I would have wanted with my father, but just didn’t happen. And I have a grandson too. And I can see the same thing happening there. It’s not to say that I was perfect as a father, in any way at all. 

But I’ve always thought that raising, I mean, it’s one of the things that attracted me to writing and illustrating children’s books is because I’m very interested in early childhood, those formative years, those very early weeks, months, and years, really do affect the people that we become.

And one of the things that I understood, I think, is that raising children in a way is kind of really very simple. You know, children just want our time. They want to be heard. They want a discussion. They just want you to show up. And, you know, I’ve said before that …

raising children is almost like growing plants, that in a way you water them, you give them sunlight. And that criticism is almost like weed killer. 

And I received a lot of criticism as a child, both from my father but also at school. That’s the way that schools worked largely back then. I received so much criticism. And even now I struggle with that inner voice, that critical inner voice, and I’ve had to very consciously understand that that voice doesn’t belong to me. It’s not my voice – that the these are thoughts that were implanted there at that very formative age. So, with my kids, I set out to do the opposite really, to, you know, when they came home with their first drippy paintings, it just seems so natural to say: It’s wonderful. It’s beautiful. And to watch them grow and flourish. From that point, I think is an absolutely marvellous thing. And you know what you give your children you get back ten times over in your own life. So, that’s very important to me. In fact, if I was to say, You know what I’m most proud of in my life? It’s not so much anything to do with work, it’s to do with my relationship with my kids and my grandchildren. And that’s the most precious thing to me. It really is. 

Deborah: That’s wonderful. You’ve written some amazing children’s books. You wrote the Anholt Artists books for children, which brought together your love of painting because you started life as an artist, didn’t you? 

Laurence: Yes, I did.

Deborah: So, the question really:  life as an artist, and life as an author is, it’s a very, very difficult path to take. So why did you choose to do that? Were you pushed or persuaded in any way to go out and earn a living? Because you spend lots of time with your children, but it must have been very difficult making that decision? 

Laurence: Yeah, that’s a really good point. I mean, yes, I was pushed to do something. Although, you know, my father, both of my parents were people who were very interested in the arts in general. So, it’s not like they were forcing me to become a dentist or something. But I do remember my father, when I first had a child saying: You know, now you’ve got to face up your responsibilities and pay your mortgage, and so on. Perfectly fair. 

And I did work for a while, as a school teacher. I taught art for a while, but not for long. And then, very quickly, I got into the business along with my wife, Catherine, of writing and illustrating picture books. And it seemed very natural to me. And well, above all else, it allowed me to be at home, to work from home. And not only that, but sort of integrate the children into my work. You know, a lot of our early ideas came from our own children. So, it ticked a lot of boxes looking back on it. 

None of that it was a conscious plan at the time. But also, yes, I’ve always been both an artist and a writer. I’ve always been interested in both of those things. And when you think about it, picture books are one of the few ways in which you can do both. That series that I do about great artists came really very naturally to me. And in fact, 35 years on, I’m still working on those. I’m doing some interesting projects related to those right now – stories about great artists for young children. Yeah, so when I’m working on those, it’s the words, and the pictures running together, almost like a sort of footpath beside a stream, really through t a story. And I like that very much. 

And just finally to say, that when I’m writing novels now, writing novels for adults, I think, visually. I’m not sure if everybody does, but I see the events, almost like a movie in my head. I’ve always just thought in that way. I think visually. And so, for me, when I’m writing, 

when I’m writing (for adults), I get myself almost into a state of sort of lucid dreaming, you know, where I see and smell and touch everything that’s around me. And I’m sort of lulling myself into a hypnotic state. And again, this ties into meditation and the whole sort of mental attitude towards writing.

And that for me is the secret. When I’m in that stage, then the writing comes very fluidly. And the characters become very real and the places become very real. And when I’m not, then it just ain’t happening. And then there’s that whole struggle of, of getting into it. So, a bit of a rambling answer, but yeah.

Deborah: No, that’s incredible. So, the stories you write, the ones you write for children: the Anholt Artists, and the Hypnotist, which is about race and the Ku Klux Klan, and The Mindful Detective novels, they’re all about values and life lessons. Because The Mindful Detective is about the values and life of a Buddhist detective. And I know there’s messages in each of the children’s art books. So, is that always your intention? 

Laurence: Yeah. It’s certainly not something that I sort of set out to do. I certainly don’t want ever want to be didactic. But yes. I suppose part of writing is exploring what you’re learning and what you’re feeling in your life. And so that spills out into the work. 

I mean, I write often to try and solidify my own ideas, and if those ideas are passed on to other people and you know, that’s absolutely a bonus.

The Hypnotists was a young adult novel about, as you say, civil rights and the Ku Klux Klan. And, yeah, I mean, I absolutely did want to educate young people about that very, very important era in history. And, you know, I’ve had some really interesting correspondence with young people about that. But, yeah, I don’t ever want to be sort of preachy. 

With The Mindful Detective, in a way, I think what entertains me about it is that he’s this very unlikely cop. He’s a cop who feels too much for his own good. Besides the sort of Buddhist aspect, he’s also an empath. So, when he’s confronted by a crime, it horrifies him. It appals him. And I think that’s one of the reasons that I wanted to create this character. It was because I’ve often looked at – we’re all fascinated by true crime and that sort of thing – but it amazes me quite often, how detached people are by it all. And I guess if you were a detective or a cop, you would have to develop a pretty thick skin. But I’ve often sort of thought, well, what would that actually be like? What would it be like for me? I mean, I would be traumatised by what I’ve seen. So, my character, Vincent Kane, The Mindful Detective, is a very reluctant cop. He really doesn’t want to be here at all, but he’s damn good at it because he has these intuitive skills, ways of relating to people, and also an instinctive sleuthing skill, almost like a sort of Native American tracker. So, he picks up on things that other people don’t see. And that’s why he’s always pulled back to these things. Pulled out of his blissful life in his cabin on the under cliffs outside Lyme Regis, where he sits in in meditation and enjoying nature, every time he’s reluctantly drawn into some bizarre crime. So that’s the basic idea. 

Deborah: Sounds fantastic. I’ve got to read them. You practice meditation yourself, don’t you? So, I wondered how that helps you as a writer.

Laurence: Yes. I got into – I mean, I’ve talked a lot about my father, the person I haven’t talked about is my mother, who was an extraordinary woman.  My parents just couldn’t have been more different. Again, I’m writing about this now. So, it’s very much in my mind. My mum was Scottish English. And whereas my father was olive-skinned, dark and secretive, my mother was an academic. She loved literature and writing. And she was an English teacher; a wonderful woman. And she also had a kind of almost hippyish interest in eastern philosophy. She loved to travel. 

And I remember, in my teens I think, being dragged along to a transcendental meditation group that she joined. And that was a thing that we had in common throughout our life, really; that we talked about the sort of spiritual side of things. And so, I got into meditation through her really at a relatively young age. And I’m sort of on and off, and on and off with it. And I would always come back to it at times of particular stress or particular difficulty. I’d realise that there was something missing. And then I have to think that what is it? What’s missing? What’s missing? And then I’d realised that it was that. And I think that, you know, the world that we’re living in now, is a very complicated and quite scary world. And for young people, particularly, they’re faced with so many existential threats, and there’s so much anxiety about and social media intensifies that. 

And so, I think meditation and some sort of spiritual basis, some sort of foundation in our lives is more important, perhaps, than it ever has been

And there’s a lovely thing happening as I’m talking now, which is, the sun’s coming out across the sea out of my window. It has been a foggy day and the sun’s just coming out. So, there we are. That’s what meditations like. It’s restorative. And so, I meditate not because I’m a spiritually aware person, but because of the opposite. Because I have a naturally very overactive mind. I have a brain like Piccadilly Circus in the rush hour and I just need this to stabilise my life. 

And so yeah, I start each day sitting for 30 minutes. And it’s tremendously important because it helps me to focus. And you know, in the old days, I remember when we first got computers, there was that D fragmenting process that you had to do with your computer. And it’s a bit like that, you know…

 restoring factory settings in your mind. Getting rid of the clutter. Just sitting in silence. And then writing comes so much easier from that point.

It also helps me to settle that critical voice and get ready for writing? So, it’s invaluable for me? Yeah.

Deborah: I agree, because I like to – I have to – do a daily meditation because as you say, if I don’t do it, I can feel it. It’s like missing a meal. You need it for your nourishment.

Laurence: Exactly. Exactly. 

Deborah: And like you, for me, it’s to still myself, and all of that noise that goes on in your head: the critic, the worrying, the anxiety. It’s just calming down. Very good.

So, if you go back to the young Lawrence, perhaps when you were going through the most angst with your family life or worrying about life as an artist? What, what words of wisdom would you say to your younger self now?

Laurence: Yeah, I mean, that’s a tricky one. Because I think what I lacked as a child was, you know, that encouragement that should have come from other people, i.e., from my father, from teachers at school, and so on. And so, you know, that’s not something that I could fix. But actually, I’ll tell you something that’s just come to mind, Deborah, which I think applies to writers and to children as well.

 When I was writing children’s books, I spend a lot of time visiting schools. And I would talk to really quite young kids about that inner voice about the way that we talk to ourselves. And I remember a thing that I would say to kids of six or seven years old, that they would really, really understand. I would say to them, 

imagine that you’re sitting down at a table and you’re trying to draw a picture or do some creative writing and you’ve got a friend who’s standing at your shoulder and the whole time you’re working they’re saying: That’s rubbish. That’s no good. That’s never going to work, you know? What would that be like?

And the kids would say: Oh, my God, it would be impossible to do your work. And then I would say to them: Do you have an inner voice? Do you speak to yourself? And they would understand that, and they would recognise that yes, they probably did. And I think we all have an inner voice. And so, I think that this idea of examining that inner voice and making sure that it’s helpful, that it’s constructive is really, really important, wherever you are in your life.

That’s one of the things that I learned from getting interested in Buddhism. I did a full foundation course in Buddhist philosophy. And I remember the very first principle of Buddhism that I discovered that just rang so true to me, was, the Buddha said this incredible thing two and a half, thousand years ago, which I believe to be one of the truest things that has ever been said. He said, 

the mind is everything. What you think you become.

And when you think about it, that is so profound, because everything that we experience in our life, is through the filter of our own mind, and through our own thoughts. And so, if we can affect that inner filter, that inner voice, and just become aware of it, and look at the way that we’re speaking to ourselves, and what sort of a climate and inner climate we’re creating, then we can begin to change that. Not by blaming ourselves, or criticising ourselves further, but just by bringing awareness to it, which again, is a Buddhist philosophy, bringing awareness to things. And then slowly, slowly, slowly, changing that inner voice to something more positive. 

So, to the children I would say: 

Imagine that that friend behind your shoulder goes away and another friend comes in who’s encouraging saying, ‘That’s great. That’s fantastic. You’re doing so well.’ How would that affect what you actually produce?

And I think as adults, we can do this on a daily basis. This has been the journey of my life really. I absorbed so much negativity. I had an extraordinary experience when my father died, which was clearing out his house. And for some strange reason, he’d kept my school reports. I’m not sure why. And they were, without exception, incredibly negative and critical. And, you know, I failed so badly. And it’s almost like these teachers, and my father had got into this thing of, you know, that I was fulfilling a prophecy, you know: He’s stupid. He’s lazy. There we go, this proves it. And so, it went on. And there was this kind of negative spiral that just went on, and on, and on. 

And so, the journey of my life, I think it has been, it still goes on, on daily basis, has been learning to just tweak that. Just to change it. And it’s magical. It’s extraordinary. And it ties in with, you know, this whole thing of manifesting. It’s thought of as a sort of modern concept, but that’s part of Buddhism as well. That, you know, 

if you start believing in positive things, then good fortune does seem to flow your way to the most extraordinary degree.

And I remember, you know, in my 20s, and 30s, late 20s, and 30s, when I was beginning this journey with my wife, Cathy, of writing and illustrating children’s books, for whatever reason, I was in a very positive frame of mind. I was meditating at the time, and it was just quite extraordinary. There was this sort of wonderful tide of good fortune that seemed to flow towards us, and it sort of just felt so natural. And then you lose touch with that, and you become doubtful and cynical, and it leaves you. And then it comes back again, you know, and I think that’s such an interesting, such an interesting concept. Again, another Waffly answer.

 Deborah: No, that’s fascinating. I’m hanging on your every word, as I’m sure listeners will. You’re so interesting and inspiring.  I know – and I’m talking from my personal experience – I’ve gone through times where everything is going really great. And you’re thinking, wow, you know, I’ve manifested this – I don’t use those words –but I’ve manifested this. I’ve been really positive and done all the right things. Everything’s going great. And it goes on for so long. And then suddenly, you go into a real slump. And either, things don’t happen when you think they should; they don’t happen the way you think they should; you feel out of control, and you feel as if it’s left you, and you’re lost. And whatever wonderful spirit was guiding you and blessing you, seems to have disappeared for a bit. Let’s talk about that, because that’s an important stage that we all go through. What’s your reflections on how to deal with that? 

Laurence: So absolutely true. I experienced that myself. I think one always will experience that. So, what I would say to that is, I think, again, I would look at a little bit of wisdom that used to come from my own mum. She had this this amazing philosophy. And one of her favourite words was the word dappled. Dappled is a lovely word. And I remember at quite a young age, she shared a poem with me by Gerard Manley Hopkins, which is called Pied Beauty. And it’s about the dappled quality of nature, you know, the way that the light falls through a tree in light and shade and the way that the cows in the field are dappled and so on. And, Gerald Manley Hopkins, she explained to me, was using this as a metaphor for life – the light and the dark. And again, this comes back to Buddhism, that, you know, one cannot exist without the other.

And so those dips and dives that we constantly enter and then leave are as much a part of life as the joy. That it’s impossible to be in a joyful blissed out state all the time. Life just isn’t like that. 

But I think that what you can do; you can you can’t avoid those things. You can’t avoid illness. You can’t avoid tragedy. You can’t avoid so many things. I mean, so much of what’s going on in the world right now is out of our control. But what you can do, is adopt a state of sort of benevolent acceptance, in a way. Which has to do with embracing those lights and darks. And again, the, you know, coming back to Buddhism, the Buddhist monks would have this practice of meditating in the charnel grounds. You know, alongside the dead bodies, because it was part of this acceptance of mortality and death. And all the things that we in the West push away and reject. It was to do with that thing of accepting it all. Accepting it all, for whatever it is; the dappled things in life, and sort of being at ease with that. Because after all, you cannot avoid it. 

We will all die. We will all become ill. We will all get older.

And so, if you’re fighting it … I think that’s one of the things that’s so unhealthy with this Instagram culture that’s been pushed on young people. They’re being encouraged to aspire to this idea of perfection, which is an illusion. It just simply doesn’t exist. So yeah, I also think with writing, those periods of uncertainty, when you examine them afterwards, are not quite what they seem. It feels sometimes like you’ve lost touch with your creative flow. But actually, if you examine it afterwards, it’s, I’m trying to remember who it was The boys in the basement…

Deborah: Stephen King?

Laurence: Stephen King, said, ‘The boys in the basement, (the girls in the basement too), you know, there’s something cooking down in the bottom oven – and just to accept that. When it’s difficult, go for a walk. I’m very blessed here. We have a lot of space. We’ve got a bit of land, and so just to sit at a desk beating yourself up, is not the best way to be. So, make use of the times when you’re outside, just doing something completely different are as important, I think. That is all I can say. 

Deborah: Thank you. Well, I think time is going to start running out, and I could talk to you forever. So many fascinating insights. It was a real privilege to have you join us today. 

Laurence: Such a pleasure, Deborah.

Deborah: Any last words, before you go?

Laurence: People often ask for little writing tips. I mean, one very small writing tip I’ve been thinking about a lot. My daughter, Maddy, published her first book – really good book, last year about toxic relationships. She’s a really good writer. I was speaking to her just yesterday and she got rather stuck at a particular point and she was asking me for advice. And she said that she had lost connection with what she was writing, And I was in a similar place myself. So, we had a bit if a discussion about it. Maddy had trained as an actor. And so, I said to her, it’s those skills that you need to apply here. In other words what I’m saying in a convoluted way is that as writers we need to step inside the skin of our protagonists. So, when we get stuck. When we get lost. It’s because we’ve lost connection with our characters. And so, what you can do as a writer, when you get stuck is become an actor and start feeling what they are feeling. For me, feelings and emotions are often the key to getting things moving again. So, if I’m just not able to connect with a situation in the story, I try to do that. To think what that person is feeling. In writing this thing that is almost autobiographical, I was struggling with that and I realised it was because it was just really rather painful – this business of remembering how lost and painful it all was. And so, you have to go there; really step in and feel those kinds of feelings and then the writing starts to flow from that point.

 So, I would say as a little tip for a writer, when you get stuck, inhabit those emotions; experience the feelings of your protagonist at that particular point and see if that starts to get the machine flowing again. 

I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as I did. Laurence was so interesting; I was reluctant to say goodbye and probably over ran. If you are still with me, I am going to end by reading the poem Laurence mentioned by Herald Manley Hopkins. Pied Beauty.

Pied Beauty 

BY GERARD MANLEY HOPKINS

Glory be to God for dappled things – 

   For skies of couple-colour as a brinded cow; 

      For rose-moles all in stipple upon trout that swim; 

Fresh-firecoal chestnut-falls; finches’ wings; 

   Landscape plotted and pieced – fold, fallow, and plough; 

      And áll trádes, their gear and tackle and trim. 

All things counter, original, spare, strange; 

   Whatever is fickle, freckled (who knows how?) 

      With swift, slow; sweet, sour; adazzle, dim; 

He fathers-forth whose beauty is past change: 

                                Praise him.

The Mindful Writer will be back on 11th January with guest, Kim Nash. Seasons greetings to you all.

So, until next year. Take care of your beautiful self, and trust the journey.

You can find all episodes of The Mindful Writer podcast here: https://themindfulwriter.buzzsprout.com

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How to rewrite the story of your life with author and life coach Matthew Williams

In this eight episode of The Mindful Writer Author and Life coach Matthew Williams tells me how he wrote himself out of what he describes as a shit place to write himself a better life story. Although Matthew hit rock bottom in his personal life he used this experience to create something amazing.

Before we launch into the interview I will update you on my writing journey.

After escaping Covid for more than two years it finally caught up with me. Like many others I picked up the virus whilst on holiday. To be precise Sherman, my husband contracted it on the last day of our holiday and I caught it from him four days later.

It is 14 days since I tested positive. One week in I tested negative and thought right – I’m fit. Back to work! I thought I had recovered 100% and wanting to make up for lost time threw myself into work and catching up on social engagements. Two days later I had an almighty migraine.

It is hard to let go of a busy agenda and resign ourself to what is. Being unwell filled me with appreciation for my usual state of good health and gratitude for the scientists who developed a vaccine and those who administered it.

We cannot control the things that happen to us only how we react to them. Matthew Williams is an incredible example of this. In this week’s podcast he tells me how he was compelled to share his story with the world so that others could journey with him from what was a very dark place.

Let me introduce you.

Matthew Williams is an author, public speaker, and life coach. In this episode he tells me:

How writing took him from a ‘shit place’ to achieving remarkable things

How you can change the story of your life by taking control of the pen.

Matthew Williams

You can listen to the podcast here: Episode eight How to rewrite the story of your life

Or read the transcript below:

Deborah: Hi, Matthew. 

Matthew: Hi there.

Deborah: I’m particularly interested in exploring with you today your story, how you journeyed from what you describe as ‘a shit place,’ to where you are now as an author, speaker and coach. So welcome.

Matthew: Thank you very much for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here. And like you said, describing where my journey, my story started – it’s, yeah, it’s a long way away from there. And to have the opportunity to be sat here speaking as an author when it seemed like a million miles away. So yeah, it’s great to be here.

Deborah: Excellent. And we’re going to explore that with you because you have had a remarkable journey. But let’s just start with telling us about the significant changes in your life, which were a divorce, and struggles with mental health, which led you to becoming a published author, and an active campaigner for mental health, and setting up an online course to help others change their story. 

Matthew: Yes, so my blog was where it all started really. That was, where are we now? So back in December 2015. So maybe seven years ago now. And it was a year on well, over a year on, from a marriage breakup. We’d been together 20 years, and married for nearly nine of those. And, and the year following the breakup I thought I was kind of running on adrenaline really. And again, all this is kind of, in hindsight, but once the initial kind of shock, you know, shock of what was happening – you have to start looking forward and obviously how your life is gonna be. I think then your focus is on the immediate term, and the practical things, you need to get sorted out – find somewhere to live – all of this kind of thing. I think the biggest thing for me is adjusting to the changes with my kids, my children. So, you know, from being there every day to suddenly not being there was very difficult. But like I say, I was mostly taken up with those kinds of practicalities. 

I met someone and so, you know, one of the things I really found difficult was not being in that kind of family unit anymore. It was something that had always been very important to me. So, you know, I met someone and I felt that I kind of had that again. But you know, it’s such a tumultuous time. That relationship didn’t last – about 10 months. It was kind of a few months after that ended. And that was all very amicable. We were in different places, really. 

It was one night in December 2015, when a lot of things kind of hit me all at once. You know, my ex-wife was kind of moving on with her life with a new partner and my ex-girlfriend was the same, and then you know, facing my first Christmas on my own and yeah, it was just a lot of things hit me all at once. I felt shit to put it mildly. It was not a nice time. 

But it was really strange that I was in this hotel one evening, I was working away and I just felt compelled to write about it. And I’ve never, never done anything like that before. I mean, I’ve always been an avid reader, but I never thought that I could write. I just felt compelled to. That’s the only way I can describe it. I just knew I had to put it, put it down on paper. Type it on the screen and So I did. That evening, I just wrote how I was feeling and what I was going through at that particular time, downloaded the blogging app and published it, and so there wasn’t really a huge amount of thought, I just did it. And I had no idea what to expect. 

But, you know, I got really encouraging feedback from people. I was obviously able to articulate what I was experiencing in a way that connected with people. And then, once I’d started, it just didn’t stop it. Again, I felt compelled to do this. There was loads more stuff I wanted to say. The mental health side of things – now, it was something I had already experienced twice, by this point. So, in 2006, and in 2013, I’d had some really difficult struggles with depression. And so, when my marriage ended, that was kind of at the back of my mind that obviously, I didn’t want to go back there. And same for over for over a year, I like to say, I’ve been kind of going on adrenaline or whatever, I’ve never felt any sign that I was slipping back. But at that point, it when I started writing I knew I was struggling, so it helped me really kind of process things. And so, I didn’t set out to write about mental health, you know, but I realised that it was such a big part of what formed me that I had to. It was about my third post that, I wrote about having suffered with depression. And again, that had a really big impact with people. I got opportunities to write and publish on different websites and things and yeah, I guess, I found my voice. I found what I was passionate about. It’s such an alien experience to go through, you know, a severe episode with your mental health. And to find that I could articulate this in a way that people understood and could relate to, you know, I realised it was something that I needed to use and make the most of really. As I say, I wanted to help people. And so yeah, through that I got involved in campaigning – various campaigns working for big charities. And, and that whole process led to the creation of my on-line course.

Deborah: Excellent. Let’s just stop there to unpick a few things there. Listening to you – it’s a really emotional journey. And you wrap it up as if it happened just like that. But it must have been incredibly painful time for you. And the growth, the emotional courage that you had to survive that and the growth you went through, to get from where you were to where you are now is incredible. And I just wanted to talk to you about a couple of things. One is that point where you were in a really dark place, which you describe as a shit place – which I think is a great way to describe it – from that shit place you had this sense of purpose, I need to write this down. And I just wanted to explore with you how that feeling of purpose drove you and reflecting back, what your thoughts are about the things that drive us to do what’s in our heart? What is it that leads us to do these things? And how do we listen to them and act on them? Perhaps just explore that with you a bit?

Matthew: It was a really emotional time and experience. Initially, I had a bit of an argument with my parents, my dad in particular. Back then, I was putting stuff out there that was very raw. And, you know, and they were my parents and were kind of concerned about me, a lot of people were, you know, seeing what I was writing. And what, yeah, I did, I felt driven to do.  But initially, I think it was a really good way of me processing what I was going through and I, you know, my dad said, ‘Why can’t you just write about it? Why does it have to be public?’  And I really had to reflect on that because I’ve never been someone that wanted the limelight or attention. But I felt a real need to put it out there and I questioned myself about that. And what I realised was that by writing about it, I had to find a meaning for it. I had to find a purpose for it. It couldn’t just be, oh, look, I’m going through a shit time, you know. It had to mean something. And so, I had to find positives. I had to find a way of reframing it so that’s what I wanted to put out there. And this may be weird as well but I had a sense, right from the start that it was significant. When I started writing that it was a significant moment in my life, and it was going to mean something. And I just knew it. Even though I was in a really bad place, even though I’d never written anything before – I didn’t think, you know, I’m gonna be this great writer – I just had a sense that it was going to mean something. And one of the things that drove me one of the things that drove me

is that, at some level, I had this sense again – it’s not like I was consciously thinking, This is what’s going to happen. But somewhere, it was almost like, if I show myself at this real low ebb where I’m feeling vulnerable, exposed, and, and all of that kind of thing. At some point, there’s going to be a point at which to say, look, what all that led to. It was because of all that this happened. And by exposing myself in real time, it was almost like, people would see that. And people would know that yeah, you know, whatever- good does come out of it they’ve seen all the crap that happened for me to get there. That these things don’t just magically happen. There’s always a real struggle behind it. Again, not saying that, you know, I ever imagined some great pinnacle that I’d be on. But, you know, amazing things have happened.

I guess, it’s been difficult, again, isn’t that things, you know suddenly everything kind of falls in your lap. By being out there and putting yourself out there and making the connections that enables this because you’re coming from a place that is real, and people identify with that. I just felt a drive to do that.

Deborah: You’ve put that very well. And as you’re speaking it through, it sounds as if you are doing exactly what you say you do – you talk about changing your story. And as you’re talking about the process of writing down what’s happening to you with the faith that it would all turn out, okay, you’re kind of taking control of your story and writing it. But you’re doing it very publicly, which took a lot of courage to expose yourself in that way, which we’ll talk about. But you’re also sharing a narrative that other people can identify with. And you went out there doing that with a faith that it would end up okay. And it has, which is remarkable.

Matthew: Yeah, and that to be honest, that’s been one of the things that my struggles with mental health taught me. You asked about – I can’t remember exact wording, but you said something about people in a similar situation. But it wasn’t that… I’m trying to think how to put it. It’s almost that you have to strip away what’s stopping you doing it. So, again, I felt a need and a compulsion to do it. The challenge is then, do you take that step? And to me that’s about stripping away. I think a lot of people are held back from their potential because they are scared of what other people will think, or scared of failing, you know, whatever expectations people have on them and how they should live. And so, it’s more about removing the things that are stopping you. Because I think inside us, you know, that it’s there – you have to kind of uncover it and clear away the crap. It’s there in us and, and for me, it was actually my experiences with depression that helped me to do that, because it kind of freed me from fear and other people’s expectations because where it took me too and how bad it was – nothing can be worse than that nothing. And, you know, when I was in this room, and I could barely move, it didn’t matter what anyone else thought about me all that mattered was whether I could somehow find a way out of it. And at that time, I didn’t think I could, but I did. So, having got through that I wasn’t going to let what someone else thought of me stop me from living my life. Because when it comes down to it, when you’re in those places, you know, there’s no one around. There was no one who could drag me out of it but myself. And so yeah, it’s given me a great a trusting and faith that I can push through things because what I’ve already been through is, you know, nothing can be worse than that. 

Deborah: And doing it once and getting that reinforcement that yes, this works. I can push through and achieve. It gives you more confidence and faith to do it again. So, you go on a positive trajectory, don’t you? It just gets better and better.

Matthew: Yes, absolutely. And it’s interesting you say that you know about fear. For me, one of the things I realised was that I think I’d always thought that I’ve been lucky. And I was constantly thinking, what if my luck runs out? But then I’m 47 now, and I’ve got enough life experience behind me to be able to trust more that things always have worked out, and not only has the crap time gone away, but something good has come out of them. So, I feel more that I can hang on to that. It’s always with me now. And that sense that at some point, my luck will run out – I don’t feel that now. I think there’s so much more at play. And a big part of it is knowing who you are and trusting your gut, your instinct and eradicating those fears and the blocks that hold you back. And yeah, I guess I trust in that a lot more now.

Deborah: In your online course Change Your Story, you work with other people to help them change their story. Can you tell us a little about that? The sorts of things that hold other people back and how you help them to tackle those obstacles just as you did?

Matthew: Yes. I’ve done a lot of work over the years. My career previously I was in sport, but I very much work with people on self-development, personal development.

And then I did the same in mental health for a while.  A lot of people found it difficult to articulate their strengths, and would often underplay – downplay, their strengths and minimise them. Almost taking them for granted. Not even recognise them – you know, that’s just something they could do. And, you know, I think we’ve got this thing certainly in the UK, I think that we do that – kind of apologetic about the things that we can do well, especially if it’s something that we haven’t had to work at. But actually, there’s this focus that we identify weaknesses and try and get rid of them. I think well, one is the thing about knowing your strengths, and are you making the most of your strengths? And then that’s where, you know, you really live a kind of rich life where you’re using those strengths and can use them to help others in particular and that, is very fulfilling and rewarding. And also, reframe your weaknesses as, just characteristics, attributes. And what might be a weakness in one situation can be a strength in another. So again, it all came back for me as about being in the right story. Like you’re using the analogy of you being the leading actor in a story of your life. Well, that story needs to be the right story for you. And if it isn’t, that can cause a lot of mental distress and potentially mental illness. And so, I sum it up as like you wouldn’t put Rocky in a romcom – boxing is my kind of big thing – because it doesn’t fit the character. And that seems to resonate with people. 

I think we often do drift in life and this is what happened with me, it was divorce, and mental health. It’s when things come along, that just shake you out of that and drifting along just isn’t an option anymore. Certainly, for me, clearly the mental health because you’re just not yourself anymore. I really questioned a lot of these things, who you are and what you’re doing in your life? So yeah, and I think that the analogy of a story, it puts some distance – it helps people to view their life more objectively and see things differently. We get very tied to the stories we tell ourselves. And the idea is that, well, it is just a story. And you’ve got the pen and you can rewrite it. Again, I think that’s an analogy that people can relate to. And it’s really interesting the realisations people have – little light bulb moments. You know, say I’ve done my job, when people have those lightbulb moments, but it’s true –  I’ve given them a framework to look at things differently.

Deborah: I love that framework. I read somewhere, that at the end of your life, you’ll look back, and your story will all make complete sense. And being an author myself, that really resonates with me, because as writers, we put our protagonist through hell, but we know they’re going to have their happy ending. And all the little breadcrumbs we drop in our stories of things happening, that the protagonist has to pick up on to find where they’re meant to go, that happens to us in our lives. And it’s only when we can see that– just as you were able to go inwards, and pick up what it was you wanted to do, and understand who you were and what your story needed to be. And so, it’s only when we do that, we kind of pick up all the hints around us which are leading us in the right direction, if only we open our eyes, heart, ears and listen.

Matthew: Definitely. And it. Was writing that really taught me that and writing my own story. It is amazing how you recognise threads and themes in your life. And again, this is something that became part of my programme about, you know, What’s the plot of your story to date? It reveals things about how, again, how we view our life and what we’re capable of in life. And yeah, it was amazing how, again, different things, you know, seemingly disparate events suddenly form part of a bigger whole.

The quote that sums all that up for me from Steve Jobs, and it opens my book about the connecting the dots. That you can only connect the dots looking backwards. So, you’ve got to trust in something. And you’ve got to trust that those dots will connect in the future. And so, you have to have faith in something, whether it be your gut, intuition, God the Universe, wherever it is, but you have to trust that something is leading you to that. And that is so powerful to me. I think it echoes in everything that I do, really that, you know, that idea that whatever is happening, finding some sense of meaning and purpose from it and turning it into something that, again, where there’s a moment in which I yeah, that’s why that happened.

You can’t connect the dots looking forward; you can only connect them looking backward. So, you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future

Steve Jobs

Deborah: There’s some wonderful insightful gems there, which I’m looking forward to sharing with listeners. I will give the Steve Jobs reference in the show notes, and a link to your on-line course Change Your Story.

Before you go, can you share with us your words of wisdom? What is the key thing – you’ve told us about sharing the story, can you put that into a mantra or something that listeners can take with them?

Matthew: Oh, the big thing for me is that we as a species, we’re storytellers. We create narratives around everything that happens in our life, who we are, our relationships to others. All of that is a story that we tell ourselves. And the question is who, who is holding the pen? And who is writing that story? Are you consciously creating the story of your life? Or are you allowing it to be written for you by other people’s expectations – by a particular person in your life, whether it be a partner, a parent, an employer? Are you handing the pen to somebody else? At any point, you can take that pen and you can create your story. And so what this is about – it’s about taking more control over the pen that writes your story.  And talk about plot twists – you can’t control everything, and the last couple years have shown that more than more than most, I guess. But we can always choose how we respond to it. And again, and we can use the lessons from those changes to take a new direction, to learn new things about ourselves, to become more who we’re meant to be. And it all comes back to that. You taking control of the pen and you deciding which direction your story’s going to go in.

Deborah: Excellent. Thank you. 

Matthew: That’s a bit of a long mantra that.

Deborah: No, no, you’ve said it very well. Take control in writing your own story. Perfect. Thank you, Matthew.

Matthew: You’re welcome. Thank you.

Links from Matthew:

For information on Knock Out Depression please visit my website: https://changeyourstory.org.uk/KODepression/

Visit my Amazon author page: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Matthew-Williams/e/B074QRTXWV/ref=dp_byline_cont_ebooks_1

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/matthewwilliamskodepression

How has writing transformed your life? I know that I would not have gone through a journey of self discovery had I not experienced disappointment and frustration on my writing journey. I would not have started my blog or this podcast. I would not have met amazing guests from across the world or connected with you. Writing brings us so much more than the end product of a book.

I would love to hear from you. You can write to me at dkauthor@btinternet.com or leave a message here.

So, until next time … Look after your beautiful self and trust the journey.

You can find all episodes of The Mindful Writer podcast here: https://themindfulwriter.buzzsprout.com

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